The Lady Vanishes: Ethel Lina White

Sarah Harrison: Welcome to Tea Tonic & Toxin, a book club and podcast for anyone who wants to explore the best mysteries and thrillers ever written. I’m your host, Sarah Harrison.

Carolyn Daughters: And I’m your host Carolyn Daughters. Pour yourself a cup of tea, a gin and tonic …

Sarah Harrison: … but not a toxin …

Carolyn Daughters: And join us on a journey through 19th and 20th century mysteries and thrillers, every one of them a game changer.

Sarah Harrison
Today, our sponsor is our own Carolyn Daughters. Carolyn runs brand identity and brand therapy workshops for small businesses and startups. She also leads persuasive writing workshops for teams at corporations, government agencies, and military bases. Organizations small and large work with Carolyn when they want to win hearts, minds, deals, and dollars. You can learn more at carolyndaughters.com. Carolyn, we are back with Alex Csurko.

Carolyn Daughters  01:39

To discuss The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes) by Ethel Lina White, which is a huge find. I’m so glad we’re doing this book.

Sarah Harrison  01:47

I complained a little bit. I was complaining last night that the last letter in Ethel’s first name is the same as the first letter in her second name. And so I say Ethel Lina all together. I don’t split it up into two words. Did she go by Ethel Lina? What does she go by Alex

Alex Csurko  02:07

Ethe Lina White is in all newspapers. It’s on all censuses. I believe that she did go by Ethel Lina.

Sarah Harrison  02:18

Okay, so her friends called her Ethel Lina.

Carolyn Daughters  02:21

All together. Parents take note of Sarah’s input and advice here.

Sarah Harrison  02:28

Make the names like not sound like one name, or just make one name. I don’t know why you’re doing that. Ethel Lina is a fun name. It is. I would make it a single name, right? Yes. Yes. Anyhow, we have a great shout out to do in this episode before we dive back in with Alex and all things Ethel Lina White and The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes). Today’s shout out on the episode goes to Willow McMurray from Wood River, Illinois, folks, I don’t know if you’re aware, but we’ve recently had a subscription drive. I would call it, subscribe to the episode, subscribe to the YouTube, follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And Willow went out there and did all of it. So she is gonna get one of our beautiful, gorgeous Tea Tonic and Toxin stickers. Thank you, Willow. Thank you and listeners. You can too do all the things.

Carolyn Daughters  03:30

Well, we’ll even give her a bookmark. We have very cool Longmire Days bookmarks. It’s combo deal. So we are reading and discussing The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes) by Ethel Lina White, a really awesome book, from my perspective. So this summary of what it’s about Iris cars holiday in the mountains of a remote corner of Europe has come to an end, and she faces the journey home alone without her friends, stricken by sunstroke at the station, she catches the express train to Trieste by the skin of her teeth, and finds a companion in Miss Froy an affable English governess, but when Iris passes out and reawakens, Miss Froy is nowhere to be found. The other passengers deny any knowledge of her existence, and as the trains, train speeds across Europe, Iris spirals deeper and deeper into a strange and dangerous conspiracy, first published in 1936 and adapted for the screen as the Lady Vanishes by Alfred Hitchcock in 1938 Ethel Lina White’s suspenseful mystery remains her best known novel worthy of acknowledgement as a classic of the genre in its own right.

Sarah Harrison  04:47

Thanks. Carolyn and I have the pleasure to introduce maybe one of only two experts

Carolyn Daughters  04:55

we have discovered there are two Yes. Listen

Sarah Harrison  04:59

to the first episode. If you want to hear about the other one, but I’m here to talk with Alex Jerko today. He’s writing his PhD thesis on Welsh born interwar writer Ethel Lina White, whom he first discovered during his undergraduate studies on Alfred Hitchcock. Alex is recognized as an up and coming authority on White after his interview with BBC Wales online, published in December 2021 discussing author’s life and work. In 2023 he contributed an extensive biography on White for the Gwin local history journal. Most recently, he collaborated with Tony Medawar on the short story collection Blackout and other stories to be published by CrippenLandru in 2025 as a member of The Magic Circle. Alex also regularly contributes theoretical essays on the craft of magic for the society’s prestigious international magazine. Welcome, Alex. I’m gonna bust into these questions now about your biography. I held back on the first episode so we could fully give The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes) its due, but I really want to dig in more about you personally. I found you through that BBC Wales interview. That’s where I first saw your name. And I was like, hey, somebody knows about Ethel Lina White. And then I tried to track you down from there. Talk to us a little bit on how did the BBC find you, and what was that interview about.

Alex Csurko  06:30

the BBC? I used to volunteer at theater, and I was doing the lighting for the pantomime, and I came home one day because I left my phone at home. I came back, and I got an email from this person, from what I knew, and he said, Are you studying Ethel Lina White? And I freaked out, because I’m thinking all that, but when I started the course, I’ve got it, I’ve been in contact with local historians from Abergavenny, which is where she were born, and the Abergavenny Local History Society have been phenomenal, helping me out with bio, biographical information. There’s a guy I’m going to do a shout out because he’s helped me with become friends. It’s called George Beal. It does a lot for the Abergavenny history all the way in and around town. And he helped me a lot finding articles, newspapers and anything else I wanted to know about, really. So that little network that I’ve got over there where Ethel was born and where, fairly, the house that her father built is it’s a wonderful site up on Belmont. When you walk up to it, it’s magnificent, seeing the Elizabethan structure against all these modern houses. It’s quite Gothic. But there was a, there’s a blue plaque up in Abeg of any where she were originally born, on dairy on Frogmore Street. Derry view, the fact, I think this is mentioned in the BBC article, and they were going to put a QR code. So BBC Wales got in contact with the abergavenna Local History Society and said, Could you tell us a bit more about Ethel and Jill Wakeley? I’m assuming it’s Jill Wakeley, because she’s also in the article. She said the expert is Alex. Here’s his email, and that’s how that came about. And I think it were about half an hour conversation with him. He allowed me to edit the article to make sure all the information was correct. It’s great. And everybody that’s talked to me since about Ethel has gone. Did you do that BBC Wales article?

Sarah Harrison  08:38

That’s how you get found, because you don’t have anything out there. I started Googling your name after reading the article about Ethel Lina White and The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes).

Alex Csurko  08:47

I’m not much on social media.

Sarah Harrison  08:50

I found a professor from your school who posted something about you. I reached out to her on X, and I and was like, Hey, can I talk to this guy? And she never got back to me.

Alex Csurko  09:03

That’ll be my supervisor.

Sarah Harrison  09:07

Well, she needs to get back to people inquiring about you, or you need to get your own account. But then I reached out to the publisher. I saw this book was coming out, and so I was like, hey, and I saw your name was on it, but I didn’t want to make any assumptions, so I was like, Hey, could you recommend to me an expert on Ethel Lina White? And he said, Oh, then he gave me your email address, and I could get in contact with you, but you are a hard gentleman to track down. I’ll say that.

Alex Csurko  09:37

I like to be a little Sif.

Carolyn Daughters  09:42

Can you talk a little bit about your PhD? What is your focus of your PhD on Ethel Lina White?

Sarah Harrison  09:50

What are you saying about her?

Alex Csurko  09:53

My dissertation is, is very broad. Is. Very broad in the sense that I’m looking at one topic, but it’s a very large topic, and that is genre. As I said in the last episode. There’s literally and I do every now and then, I do research on the library systems, and I go out and I try and find other articles on Ethel Lina White, and there is none. There’s biographies on her by in blog posts or dictionaries and stuff like that. But actually going through journal articles, finding anything that even surface level analysis of the books I’ve only ever found one, and his name is Malcolm Turnbull, and he wrote it in 1997 and interestingly, he called it premonition predicaments and premonitions. And that’s how he summarized the writings of Ethel Lina White. And one thing that he says, and I’m quoting this verbatim, it’s fair to say that Ethel Lina White contributed nothing new to the genre. What of crime fiction, I’m assuming. But all he says is, it’s fair to say, as if to say, just brush her under the carpet. Reader once forget about it. And I looked at that and I thought, I don’t agree with that at all. So that was the that were the drive fact that I write about it in my introduction, and then I basically hammer him and said, No, look, my entire dissertation is proving to him or wrong, essentially.

Sarah Harrison  11:41

And that’s funny, that’s very Iris of you to be like, No, you’re wrong.

Alex Csurko  11:52

The dissertation itself, obviously, she wrote 17 novels that’s too many to look at in depth, even with her 8000 words, and she wrote over 130 short stories. So to write about all of those, I had to pick and choose what I wrote about. And so I came up with writing from 1927 which is when the first book was published, the wishbone, which I mentioned earlier, and finishing 1935 with wax, which is why my here’s a memory of the Todd-Hunters, is become apparent, because The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes) is actually not a focus of my dissertation. I mention it every now and then, and stuff that I’ve talked about is mentioned, but actually an in depth analysis is not in the dissertation, sure, but put out the light fear stocks the village. Some must watch and wax. They’re the four. What are classes thrillers. And as you’ve probably noticed, if you’ve looked at different biographies, or if, even, even if you get, I mean, there’s a new edition of the will spins from the British Library, and I think even they mentioned that she’s Golden Age author. In fact, I think this podcast claims that she’s part of the Golden Age narrative.

Sarah Harrison  13:11

Tell us more.

Alex Csurko  13:14

Everybody’s saying she’s a crime and mystery writer, or a lot of people say that she’s a crime and mystery writer. But you look at things like The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes), for instance there’s a conspiracy, there’s something going on. But in the sense of golden age, had detective with a detective, a small group, a close knit community, all the typical Ronald Knox, ss, Van Dyne rules the law. You don’t get that in. The Lady Vanishes. So is it crime and mystery? Probably not. You look at some must watch set in a Gothic House, or Gothic-esque house. You’ve got the professor, you’ve got a very small community, you’ve got people leaving. Is that crime and mystery? Probably not, and you’ll look at some of the after, even after The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes), the third eye elephant never forgets step in the Dart while she sleeps. All of these, I wouldn’t say that they are crime fiction. If anything, I’d call them just pure thriller. Sure, the only problem, because by saying that they’re not one you’re tempted to set No, they’re not that she’s this. And as one of my supervisors says, it’s not, either or, it’s and also, so my dissertation says, right, let’s stop saying she’s a golden age crime writer and comparing her to Agatha Christie, Dorothy Sayers, and all these other typical Golden Age crime writers. I take the approach of saying she’s a Gothic writer, which other people said she’s a Gothic writer. Everybody says she’s got a gothic touch. So I says, Well, let’s take the Gothic because you could say that all crime fit. Is Gothic, but not all Gothic is crime fiction. And I think that’s trying to make and if you, if you just take a step back from crime fiction and then look at all of her writings, new themes pop out, put out the light. I mean, anybody that’s into Shakespeare will have spotted this, but Turnbull certainly didn’t, and none of the other people that I’ve read have spotted it and put out the light is a direct quote from Othello Shakespeare. Some must watch direct quote from Hamlet. And as soon as you look at those two books in terms of Othello and Hamlet, you see brand new themes, brand new ideas. It completely strips away anything that Turnbull said, or anybody else has said, really. And I wouldn’t go as far to say as it’s a revolutionary approach to Ethel Lina White, but it’s certainly a different approach that is a lot more kind. Instead of saying she didn’t contribute anything, so let’s just ignore her. She’s just one of these that should have disappeared after she died, which is what happened. I’m saying no, she needs she’s a marginalized writer, but she was as popular as Agatha Christie. So let’s gear a due and look at it now from a modern perspective, new theories. In fact, a lot of the theories that I incorporate in the dissertation are from like the 1970s with Gilbert and Gubar, The Mad Woman in the Attic, Ellen boys, missionary women. I’m using a lot of newer theory to come to analyze 1930s really.

Carolyn Daughters  16:39

I’m super interested in The Mad Woman in the Attic, having read Gilbert and Gubar and having in my own graduate school program, studied a lot of female characters in 19th and early 20th century literature. There’s there are themes in this book of hysteria, neurosis, this this woman is either seeking the limelight Iris Carr, she’s trying to have everybody turn their attention toward her, or she has a serious mental issue, arguably, mostly, if not entirely, experienced by female characters or by women. So I mean, what is your take here? You have this depth and breadth of study and research that you’ve done about this theme in the book, and what? What are you taking away from the way it’s addressed in the book?

Alex Csurko  17:41

Madness is a well, I said madness as if all the characters are mad, they’re not. The idea of madness is a prevalent theme in Ethel Lina White. Well, the best example I can come up with, from what’s in my dissertation, is some must watch. And the reason I like that book, especially in comparison to the Lady Vanishes, The Wheel Spins, is because that was also filmed. So it’s one that people will probably remember as The Spiral Staircase, a 1940s film, slightly after love daycare, we’ll have to catch that. It’s a good film, but they heavily change the novel. It’s nothing like the novel, but the plots rough, the basic plots the same. But in there, Helen CAPELL is absolutely convinced that serial killer is lurking within the fortified Summit, which is the mansion house in the middle of nowhere. And nobody believes her, nobody cares. And one by one, all these people, one gets locked in a bedroom, another one goes. In fact, there’s like a little love triangle going off in the background. So one goes to the local pub. The girl follows, the husband follows. That’s three of them gone, and one by one, they’re going down. The nurse gets doped, left with Lady Warren. I’ve remembered a name. Finally, Lady Warren is the old spinster in the bedroom, and, well, I’ll not, I’ll not expose the ending to that. But essentially, she is right, and that is exactly the same as what happens in the Lady Vanishes. She’s adamant that she’s right. Nobody believes it turns out she’s right. So it always sides with the heroine with White. The heroine is never wrong, and the heroine never loses, which is typical. Well, I’d say it’s like romance that he was saying, wish, expect, wish fulfillment, expectation. But the way that Ethel does it especially with madness, well, the way that I compare it is with Edgar, Allan Poe and the mask of the Red Death. Earth is one that I use to compare with some must watch, but I think it’ll fit the Lady Vanishes. The idea of the enemy within, the madness in the Lady Vanishes is through Iris own. Would you say that Iris is on making she convinces herself. Despite knowing that she’s telling the truth and all the evidence of the country, she should be fighting it. I am right. I know I’m right. And yet she is subdued by authority, authoritative figures like the professor, like the doctor. That is, that’s exactly what happens in some must watch. At one point she thinks it is the professor, and then he’s asleep, and it’s like, oh, it weren’t the weren’t the professor, but it is the professor.

Carolyn Daughters  20:53

This book is, I think, so interesting that at one point, Iris car gets fairly, like, emotionally beaten down, and finally says, Fine, there is no Miss Froy, but one of them I was mentioning offline with the both of you. All of these chapters end with this foreboding sense of what is to come. It’s really just skillfully done. And so we’re wondering, is there’s no Miss Froy, what’s going to happen the next chapter? Is she going to re acknowledge that there is a miss Froy? So I just think it’s really interesting the way she’s hammered by everybody else that obviously there’s no Ms. Froy, obviously you’re wrong. The 2013 film version helped me see that it’s quite a long time that she sticks to her guns. But in the 2013 film version, people are storming up and down the train, the train car or the compartment is packed. Everybody is against her. And I really felt that very strongly. I think it reinforced my understanding of the book, where as long as she holds out, like, that’s incredible. She held out, as long as she did with everybody else saying, You must be mad.

Sarah Harrison  22:31

And they start to threaten her a little bit too. So like, Well, maybe you need to spend some time in the asylum. Maybe you need to take these pills.

Carolyn Daughters  22:39

The doctor’s gonna take you away for your own safety and well-being. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, nothing good ever comes of that, right.

Sarah Harrison  22:49

There’s not just a sense of foreboding. Actual people are having premonitions. They’re having dreams. And Miss Froy actually tells a story about a woman that got forcibly taken to an asylum.

Alex Csurko  23:02

Yes, there’s a fact about that story. And I were trying to find it this afternoon, so I wanted to mention it. I think it’s online where I read it, because I haven’t got it in any books. But the idea of the English lady on a foreign holiday not speaking any language, not speaking their language, and the doctors come to the wrong house, can’t explain the situation to them, so the tech to the mad house. That’s the story that Miss Froy explains in The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes), I am sure. But don’t quote me on this. I am sure. I read somewhere that that is an act like based on an actual event that happened in Abergavenny as the penny Val asylum, which is just outside, just on the border of Abergavenny. And I am sure I read a story that similar to that happened. And there’s people like Irina Morgan, who’s written a few biographies on her. She said that she based characters on real people, so there’s a good chance that she actually based events on real happenings as well.

Sarah Harrison  24:11

That’s wild. That is wild. And it’s like another thing too that is frequently references. Is the square on Iris hand. She has her square of protection. Somebody told her about it.

Alex Csurko  24:27

It’s mentioned for like 17 chapters and then totally forgotten about for the rest.

Carolyn Daughters  24:32

that’s true, yes.

Sarah Harrison  24:33

So talk to us a little bit about these permission premonitions, these forebodings, these signs. How does that figure into Ethel Lina White’s work?

Alex Csurko  24:43

It is everywhere. That is probably the number one narrative technique that she uses in every book. And I think that is pure and simple to keep the pages turning. A lot of characters do have these what, not just in the. Vanishes in all on all of the books, and even the short stories that some characters that can see 234, days in the future and sat there thinking, well, that’s unbelievable, but you must accept it, because, in fact, wax, this is not quite spoiling the plot, but in wax, I think it’s either the first sentence or, like in the first three paragraphs, there’s a line that tells you how it’s going to end, but you only know that that’s how it ends once you get to the end. It’s brilliant, ashy words it, but when I read it a second time, I thought I got a sex you told me that, right? So the technique of fact, I think, right at the end of the first chapter of the Lady Vanishes, is very similar to that in the yet before many hours had passed, she would have battered all the glories of nature to have them, to have called them back again. That’s as the friends are leaving. It’s like you’re instantly thinking, what’s going to happen? Let me find out. And nothing happens in the second chapter. And then, as if the experience were a threat from the future to reveal the horror of helplessness far away from all that was familiar, you think, oh, that sounds ominous. Let’s carry on. And then, or rather, if they’re actually such a person as Miss Froy, and all of a sudden you’re going, Oh, it’s Miss Froy. Never met Miss Froy yet, so let’s see if we meet Miss Froy. No, no, and it keeps going. And that’s, that’s just a technique that Ethel uses to keep you going. She’s really good. She’s a very good writer. She even does it in her romances. Not just the thrillers. The first three novels are fuller as well.

Sarah Harrison  26:48

You mentioned Malcolm Turnbull, who said he didn’t think she contributed anything to the genre. If you were to just in brief oppose that, what do you see as her major contributions?

Alex Csurko  27:06

When I said in the last episode that I can agree with you and disagree with you at the same time, that’s exactly because I was I had to write a called an RF. It was an RF too. It was like you gotta do, like an intermediary form for your dissertation. Basically, where are you what you’re going to do? How long do you need? And I wrote it there Turnbull’s argument that she contributed nothing new. And the panel came back and said, so what exactly did she contribute? Think about it. Write your response. And my answer was, nothing. What I agree with him to the extent that, and here’s how I word it in my own head. Take wax is a perfect example. The wax work Museum is that you’ve got John Dixon Carr cops in the wax work. You’ve got Ethel Lina White’s wax. There’s films, I can’t remember the names. They’ve all got wax in the title. Find them in the 1930s there’s loads of books in the 1930s with waxwork museums. Who can say that they were the originator of the idea? They can’t. Or if you’re historian that goes through that sort of stuff, you probably pinpoint the exact moment. But for Ethel Lina White, there’s people that’s gone before. John Dixon Carr wrote the cops in the wax work a couple of years before wax. But then again, wax was written as an expansion of a short story. Wax works also in the book from 1930 which predates John Dixon Carr so unless you want to do a to and fro as to who invented what, why say she didn’t contribute nothing new? Every single Golden Age author was experimenting, including Ethel Lina Carr in The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes). It’s the word I use, “experimenting” with ideas. They’ve done that. Let’s see if I can do it a different way, in a better way. In that sense, she contributed nothing new. But what I take issue with is the fact that he said that at all. There’s no need to say that. Why? His article is 30 pages long and he concludes it by saying she contributed nothing new. Why have you just spent 30 pages talking about her work if you just think she’s one of these writers that can be thrown in the bin after you’ve read them? So that’s how I answer that question.

Carolyn Daughters  29:37

So one question that I have then it feels to me like she’s advancing this conversation about the mad woman and hysteria. And I wonder if she might be seen as a progression from Wilkie Collins, for example, The Woman in White, that sort of storytelling. I’m speculating. What are your thoughts there?

Alex Csurko  30:04

I would agree that she’s in that line of thinking. It’s very hard with Ethel to pinpoint where she got inspiration from, purely because we haven’t got much biographical information on her. All you can really do is look at the books and say, right? Well, she’s quoting browning. So well she quotes browning and the Lady Vanishes. But like I said earlier, she quotes Brown in left, right and centers everywhere. I didn’t like Browning, but as soon as I was doing Ethel Lina White, I’m having to buy all these Browning books and reading these poems or something. So there’s brown in the Swinburne. You’ve got Shakespeare in there. You’ve got Dante’s Inferno and the Divine Comedy in there. All you can really do is look at, what is she quoting, what is she referencing? What’s the intertextuality in the book? And for instance, the wishbone Tony Medawar made the comparison first in print. I slightly disagree with his argument, but agree that there is an element of Jane Eyre in the wishbone. Even though the wishbone is classed as a mainstream novel, I class it as a gothic text. That’s one of the things that my dissertation addresses. But if we’ve got the wishbone as a gothic Jane Eyre, well, Jane Eyre was based on such and such. And Jane and that was based on such and so, which gets back to the sensational novels of Wilkie Collins and Edgar Allan Poe throwing them in the America. So again, I agree with you, but I can’t be sure. I can see the links I’ve I did study The Woman in White, and that’s probably one of my favorite novels of that period, and I can see the mad woman. The theme of the mad woman definitely rings true in Ethel Lina White, similar to Collins.

Carolyn Daughters  31:51

You get this sense that a woman in the wrong situation at the wrong time, with no friends, not speaking the language there’s this very strong sense of foreboding that this woman could get locked up somewhere and forgotten about. And we’re told these stories even in The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes). And so for me, when I read those stories, I think it feels pretty terrifying in in the reading.

Sarah Harrison  32:24

That was one of the interesting things to me about this, is it flips that a bit. So by all rights, Iris should be the one locked up. Iris can’t speak the language. Iris is pretty incompetent, but she does have her square protection. And then you have Miss Froy, who can speak 10 languages, and even talks about how this gives her a sense of confidence and travel, and how she could solve a situation, should she come upon it. And so the most competent person on the train actually gets kidnapped and nearly murdered, and the least competent person on the train is the one, only one that can actually help her and find her.

Carolyn Daughters  33:07

She’s constantly saved. She’s saved when she has sunstroke and she passes out on the train platform. She’s saved while she’s hiking and lost. She could be anywhere. She could be miles upon miles away from the lodging. And she even references the fact that she has constantly, throughout her life, been very fortunate and been saved. The damsel in distress idea. Her great fortune does carry her, I think, through this story.

Sarah Harrison  33:36

It just seemed like such an interesting inversion of who is fragile and who is competent and who has to save who in this situation?

Alex Csurko  33:46

It’s interesting. Now, you mentioned the palm there, and the idea of getting through on damn near luck, as you would say, because that’s another major, major theme in Ethel’s works. I think The Wheel Spins (The Lady Vanishes) is the one that kick starts, that it’s in all the I’d say it’s in all the books, to a certain extent. But from contextually, you’ve got The Wheel Spins in 36 then you’ve got the third eye. I’m looking at my bookshelf to remember titles. Third Eye In 1937 you’ve got the elephant never forgets in 37 the step in the dark, 38 and the wheel, not the wheel, spins the while she sleeps. In 1940 you’ve got five novels on in a row, and one of them includes the one that I wanted to throw in the fire, if you remember, and it were because they are, I said they were far-fetched. And the reason why they’re far-fetched is because, look, just seems to be on there, sat on the heroin side all the way through. If you read while she sleeps, she’s on the continent. We know as a reader that she’s going to. Murdered, and yet somehow she evades every single time that disaster can strike. But, well, I said disaster can strike in the sense, because, the way, while she sleeps, does it? There’s an inversion, because rather than having good fortune, she has a load of bad fortune, and she’s like, Oh my God, my looks run out. Mrs. Love apple. She’s called, my look has run out. She’s the luckiest woman in the planet. Calls herself. She calls herself, I’m so lucky. She goes on the continent, starts having a string of bad luck. She thinks that she’s lost her look. But every time she has bad luck, she’s evading being murdered. Oh, so it’s really a good look. And I think that’s so she’s Ethel’s playing around with the idea of look, fortune, chance, and it comes to, well, you’d have to read the book to understand how bad the look, literally, the bad luck is right while she sleeps and then she goes back to she faded into air, which is a stereotypical lot room mystery, no chance whatsoever in that.

Carolyn Daughters  36:13

Interesting. So let’s talk a little bit about the film version. Sarah and I this past week watched the 1938 Hitchcock version and also the 2013 version. And Alex, my understanding is you have some strong opinions about these films.

Alex Csurko  36:35

Well, I have a strong opinion on the response to these films. I should have been a bit more specific when we were conversing. The Lady Vanishes as a film. I mean, I could talk about the Hitchcock version for a long time, because I did study it for my undergrad. But for instance, the changes that Frank lander and Sydney gilliattmed, first of all, they changed the title to the lost lady, which Hitchcock thankfully changed to the Lady Vanishes. If it ought to be funny to introduce a magician who is traveling with the illusion the late the vanishing lady that were hilarious. I didn’t find it that funny. You’ve got charters and Caldecott in place of, I think it’s in place of the professor. I don’t think the professor’s in the it’s been a while since

37:25

I’ve watched film. No, the professors.

Alex Csurko  37:28

He has been split. And this max, is it Gilbert Sullivan or something? Gilbert?

Carolyn Daughters  37:35

It’s Gilbert in the movie.

Alex Csurko  37:39

Michael Redgrave as Gilbert the Max character. I should say that’s an, obviously, it’s a tweak on Max’s character. And then the looming war and the gunfight at the end, it’s like, no, you lost me at that.

Sarah Harrison  37:58

That just went again. I thought it was like a little wish fulfillment. And I remember thinking I was like, she speaks 10 languages, and she’s a governess.

Alex Csurko  38:12

was who, on half travels with a blomming tune in the red. That got rid of some of the, I can’t remember if it were in the true four book, but it says we got rid of some of the far-fetched elements. I’m thinking you added a Blom in melody in there. That’s like six all goes round and then on a piano, and she’s there. Did she get there? What did you say in the true Fauci says, Oh, you changed it so that it’s a melody. And it says it’s just sheer fantasy. So I thought, anyway, that’s, that’s the Hitchcock version. And the reason why I have, oh, go on. I was just going to say the reason why I dislike the Hitchcock version nowadays is because every time, and I’m not blaming anybody for doing it, because you have to do it, but the fact that it has to be done is what annoys me, is when you say, Well, this is a conversation I have with everybody when this find out, in fact, even teachers. I remember my supervisor introducing me to another teacher at Yoni, and this conversation happened. I’m studying Ethel Lina White. Do you know Hitchcock’s The Lady Vanishes. Well, she wrote the book. You always have to mention Hitchcock to mention Ethel Lina White. And I’m trying to get away from that, which is one of the reasons I didn’t want to talk about the book or the film in my dissertation. I want to sure look at all this other stuff that she wrote.

Carolyn Daughters  39:44

It stands on her own outside of this film and this book. Hitchcock, also with The Thirty-Nine Steps, he takes a book, John Buchan, and uses it as a springboard for this whole other. Thing totally different. And there’s also, like a hypnotist, magician, guy in The Thirty-Nine Steps that is not in the book, so apparently that’s Hitchcock’s thing, but, and so then Sarah and I were both asking each other.

Sarah Harrison  40:21

The 2013 version is really wedded to the story of the book until such time as it’s not, until the end. They follow it like dialog for dialog, they get the costumes. They’re wearing stripes, spots and plaid. Everyone’s seated in the proper place. The blonde with her hair, they’re so true to the book until the moment they just chuck it out the window. And we’re doing a different movie at the end. So talk about that. I was sad about it.

Alex Csurko  40:53

The 2013 version to me, if you you’ve got to ignore the ending, because I think, well, it’s with TV series. My parents or my mother, especially, like, what on earth do you mean by that? And with TV series, especially when it’s an adaptation, I always say it’s a 15 minute miracle, because I can watch a six episode TV series and they always do something stupid. It lasts 15 minutes. It’s like, wasted all that time. It’s same with film. So if we ignore the ending of the film, like you said, it follows the book damn near to a tea and for that, it’s amazing. I think it’s the best adaptation that could have done. Obviously, producers and direct executives and stuff have gone, no, you’ve got to do this for the end, because it’s a BBC production and that. But generally the book, it follows the book closer than its Cox does, yes, from the very beginning. And to be on it, I’ve actually got and I’ll read this act. I think it’s funny. I’ve got a quote in a book that’s on about this film, and it’s by Annie trickle bank, who’s the producer of the film, and she says, originally, we thought it was just the Hitchcock film that we were going to do, but when we started digging into it, we realized it was actually adapted from a book called The Wheel Spins, written, I think, in 1936 it’s a complete delight and beautifully written. So rather than go to the go back to the film, we decided to go to the book, to be purists, really. And then the guy who’s quoted that says, Well, this rather begs the question, why the television version maintained the title of the Hitchcock film.

Alex Csurko  42:39

There’s an article that I found. There’s hundreds of articles saying roughly the same thing, but there’s one guy that says it is absolutely nothing. The Lady Vanishes is the worst film ever compared to the Hitchcock one, really, yes, but yes, but the Hitchcock one is nothing like the book, if you’ve read the book and then watch the 2013 version, you’d be saying it’s the best thing since sliced bread. But sure, so again, even when the stick to the book, they use Hitchcock’s title. It’s com paired to Hitchcock. I went to see recent well said recently or in 2022 or 21 was during COVID, and the classic thriller theater company did an adaptation of The Lady Vanishes on stage. And I went to see it being a fan. And on the on the souvenir program, it says adapted from the Hitchcock classic. Everything says, Hitchcock. Hitchcock, Hitchcock. And I mean, even there’s a film called, I don’t know if you’re aware of this film called flight plan 2005 Jodie Foster starring in it. Find that online that is essentially the Lady Vanishes, oh, on a plane. Okay. It’s a brilliant film in its own right, and they and I just find solace in that, because the change the Hitchcock version to summit com changed it to a terrorist plot, really. And I thought that’s just comeuppance for Hitchcock on that you would destroy Ethel Lina White’s book. Let them destroy your film.

Carolyn Daughters  44:22

A lot of in the Hitchcock, a lot of comedy elements, I guess, in it, where it starts out at the hotel and every there’s no rooms to be had, and, at any rate, just a lot of madcap, odd behavior. And then the ending, of course, is extremely different. There is a magician.

Sarah Harrison  44:45

I liked the book so much. And both movies. The Hitchcock is just a different movie.

Alex Csurko  44:54

There is one. There is one solace in the move. It, and if I can find the quote, you’ll have read it in the book. I mean, I’m gonna have to paraphrase this. It’s quite a long passage, but essentially, Iris says to Max, you’ll figure out how all this is done. Pretend that I’m right for a second. Tell me how it’s done. Max says, Well, would you like to hear an original story called The strange disappearance of Miss Froy? Okay, I’m ready. Miss Froy is a spy who’s got some information which is sneaking out of the country, so she’s and what better way than on a railway journey. So one slight tick in the right direction is that it is actually joked about in the book.

Carolyn Daughters  45:45

It resonated with Hitchcock in The Lady Vanishes.

Sarah Harrison  45:48

It definitely resonates, but that’s what I liked about the book in both instances when they changed the ends. It just killed what I like in neither movie, and I want to make sure we talk about this part before we get off the episode here, but neither movie touches on this really interesting conversation that happens on the train platform before the sunstroke. Between Max the jury all about the validity of trial by jury. And Max is making this argument that trial by jury is unreliable, it’s no good. And professors making like, well, of course, you people know who to trust. And Max makes counter arguments against evidence. And he’s taking it all apart. And there’s this one part where he points to, there they’re on the train platform, and the professor points to this dark, beautiful looking seductress type. This is how would you describe the dark woman with the artificial acid lashes. And Max goes attractive, and then the professor, I’m probably going to say this word wrong. I should call her meretricious, and so would any average man of the world. Now we’ll assume that she and that English lady in the Burberry are giving contrary evidence. One of the two must be telling a lie. Max argues with this, but since Iris is overhearing the conversation, even she is like, I trust the British lady in the Burberry. Like everybody takes the British lady in the Burberry, Max is the one that’s offering all this counter evidence. And then when they get on the train, she even brings this up, and she’s like, Hey, you should be on my side in this because of your argument with the professor, and he’s not.

Alex Csurko  47:49

But there’s a bit in The Lady Vanishes where it says, something’s going to happen so that she can hear the national anthem. The flag’s going up, and then all of a sudden, it’s the balloon has popped and the flags gone, the flags in tatters, and it’s gone, the National Anthem has gone to a tin whistle. Yes, there’s this constant reinforcement of Englishness and keeping oneself to oneself, which is the excuse of all the other passengers. But I think that is just an offshoot, like earlier I was saying about the professor and the doctor being authoritative figures. I think that’s exactly the same. You’ll believe the British because they’re one of us. It’s us and them, which is a gothic theme, if you take it a bit a step further, it’s us and them, or it’s the familiar, the unfamiliar, the normal, the monstrous, the other. You want the other.

Sarah Harrison  48:47

When it comes down to it, she relies on her Britishness in The Lady Vanishes, that she should be believed. I’m British, you’re British. It’s your it’s your duty to believe me, yes, but they believe all these she’s also the unreliable, beautiful seductress type. She’s the hysterical woman. And they believe the Miss Barnes, the rose Porter, or flood porters, like all of these solid matron types, even hair does, even though he was making the counter argument. And I just thought, oh, that’s I just thought that was really interesting, original as a book to me, felt really fresh. It did to me too. That’s why I was shocked to hear someone say she hadn’t contributed anything, because, maybe because we’re reading in historical arc, right? So we started with Edgar, Allan Poe, and we’re reading through and I have not read a book like this in any of our selections. I mean, Agatha Christie makes very clever puzzles, but you’re not inside herculae head or anything, and like doubting the sense of reality that is there. And Dickens made social critique. Week, but not like, but not like.

Carolyn Daughters  50:03

Lord Peter Wimsey in Dorothy Sayers is really quite sure of himself most of the time. At no point is he questioning his overall sanity.

Sarah Harrison  50:13

Dorothy Sayers is very, very educated, very literary. I think we’re seeing Ethel Lina White is, although I hadn’t realized it, Alice has pointed out so many of the literary references she’s making, but she’s also she’s very different from Sayers. Not Harriet Vane is not at all similar.

Alex Csurko  50:35

No, once again, you’re comparing to Golden Age writers. I’m looking at from a completely different view. I’m looking at her in terms of Mary Robert Reinhart. Sure is the best connection I can make for an American equivalent. In fact, if you’re familiar with the book, The Circular Staircase. I think it was 1903, very hard book to get. I managed to get a copy. Managed to get a copy. I’ve read it. It’s very similar, the setting and the ethos. I’ll not say the plot, the plot’s totally different, but the ethos, Country House, the character and the underlying mystery, the Joanna rust would call it the buried ominous secret, right? Is very similar to some must watch and very similar. Basically, when you talking about Ethel Lina White, if you’re talking about one book, you’re talking about them all, she has a very particular style. She’s very witty. She’s very accurate with her observations on life and people. Social commentary is outstanding. I think that’s what you’re picking up on when you said it’s very fresh her. I mean, some of the things that she I can’t remember any of them, but when you reread, I think that’s why I laugh every time I keep forgetting them. I read, and I think that’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read in my life. And it’s so true when she picks up on I mean, when in the book, there is one I do remember, and I only remember it because it’s a Greek reference where Max is going to send him. She wants max to send a message, and unlike what she wanted, he doesn’t move. And he says so it weren’t flying off like Hermes in nail boots. It’s like, Who would have thought about Hermes in nail boots? You got that in your mind, and you’re thinking, That’s genius, but on the reverse side, some must watch as she’s walking down the street. It does get gory, but she imagines that the trees have flesh dangling down on them. She’s very imaginative in her descriptions. That’s the worst one I can think of with the flesh. It recalls Salvador Dali and the clocks, which is surreal, which I would argue is a lot of writings quite surreal. Well, especially in The Lady Vanishes. Is it delirium? Is it? Is it just a dream or a nightmare? Dreams and nightmares are another theme that keep cropping up. That’s why The Lady Vanishes is probably the long, lasting classic of her writing, because it has everything that she’s that she’s ever experimented with.

Carolyn Daughters  53:18

It’s all in that book and a train.

Alex Csurko  53:22

Well, obviously, you’ve got to have a train to be a bestseller.

Carolyn Daughters  53:24

Yes, we have learned that. I’m just kidding.

Sarah Harrison  53:29

Alex, we are bumping up on our time. This has been a fascinating conversation. I’m a little bit envious that you get to do your PhD on Ethel Lina White and spend all that time researching her work. She’s, we loved this book, like I said, it felt very fresh. It felt very different and new. And maybe, like you said, she’s pulling from a different tradition, but bringing it into this mystery timeline that we’ve been reading.

Carolyn Daughters  54:00

As the history of mystery, as we move chronologically through mysteries, suspense stories, thrillers, I’m really glad that we decided to include Ethel Lina White in this chronology. I think she belongs, and I’m really excited we read her. I want all of our listeners to read her start with this book and read the others.

Sarah Harrison  54:23

Watch the movies and tell us what you think.

Carolyn Daughters  54:27

Yes, but don’t watch the Cybill Shepherd version.

Sarah Harrison  54:31

I feel like I have to, because you said what? We don’t speak of it or something.

Alex Csurko  54:37

The only difference is the Hitchcock version of The Lady Vanishes was adapted from the book. The 2013 version was adapted from the book. The Cybill Shepherd one was adapted from the Hitchcock film. So it’s a what everybody’s Well, that’s everybody. Everything that I’ve read has said that this, I think it was done in 74 No. Want me on that somewhere around it’s definitely 70s, but they all said it were a worse version than the Hitchcock. Let’s just not mention it.

Carolyn Daughters  55:08

That makes sense. I’m on board.

Sarah Harrison  55:12

Alex, thank you so much for joining us to talk. It has been a delight.

Carolyn Daughters  55:18

Thank you very much.

Sarah Harrison 
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Carolyn Daughters
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Sarah Harrison
We want to thank you for joining us on our journey through the history of mystery. We absolutely adore you. Until next time, stay mysterious.