Episode 97: CW Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart Mystery Contest Winner)

SPEAKERS
Sarah Harrison, Carolyn Daughters, L. Wayne Hicks

Sarah Harrison  00:12

Welcome to Tea, Tonic and Toxin, the only book club and podcast dedicated to exploring mysteries chronologically from Edgar Allan Poe to the present. We’re discussing the best mysteries and thrillers ever written, as well as interviewing some of the world’s most talented contemporary mystery and thriller writers. I’m your host, Sarah Harrison.

Carolyn Daughters  00:34

And I’m your host Carolyn Daughters. We aim to educate, entertain and reignite interest in exceptional and often overlooked authors who shaped the genre. Check us out at teatonicandtoxin.com and on our socials to find tons of great content and take part in the conversation. We love hearing from listeners, and we’re excited you’re joining us on our journey through the history of mystery. Today’s sponsor is Linden Botanicals, a Colorado-based company that sells the world’s healthiest herbal teas and extracts. Their team has traveled the globe to find the herbs that offer the best science-based support for stress, relief, energy, memory, mood, kidney and joint health, digestion and inflammation. U.S. orders over $75 ship free, To learn more, visit lindenbotanicals.com and use code MYSTERY to get 15% off your first order.

Sarah Harrison  01:27

Carolyn, we’re going to learn a bit about the Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest today. Also, can you tell us about an exciting thing you are doing right now, and I’m pretty stoked about it.

Carolyn Daughters  01:40

It’s an exciting, intimidating, and slightly overwhelming thing. A few other people and myself are receiving copies of books that are being nominated for or potentially nominated for a Dashiell Hammett Prize for literary excellence in crime writing. And so we’re shortlisting the books. And so far, I have 39 of them, which is a lot, and more come every day. So it is the most fun to open the package and see what the book’s titles are. I love the cover art, and then I read the back of the book. And the intimidating part is, there so far are 39 of them.

Sarah Harrison  02:29

When do you have to make your selection by?

Carolyn Daughters  02:34

I don’t know. Probably a year or two, I would guess. No, I would imagine it’s in coming months, but I think submissions are happening currently live for maybe another month, and I don’t know when this episode will come out, so the submissions will be closed off by that point. It’s a lot of books. I’m going to take a few pictures of them, maybe post them on our social channels. Because I just love when you just see the title in the cover, and you don’t know anything about it, it’s just fun to imagine. What do I think this book is about, and then I flip it over and read, and sometimes it’s synced up, and sometimes it’s super divergent. And either way, it’s I’m having a lot of fun with it, so it’s a great honor and privilege to be able to do this. I’m very excited.

Sarah Harrison  03:36

Awesome. So look out for more listeners about the Dashiell Hammett Prize. If you’re one of the 39 entrants, good luck, congratulations.

Sarah Harrison  03:49

And that’s through The International Association of Crime Writers.

Sarah Harrison  03:53

Awesome. Before we get to Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner C.W. Grafton, we have another listener that we want to highlight this episode as well. Who is that, Carolyn?

Carolyn Daughters  04:02

Well, that listener is James Garfield, who I believe is not the former president of the United States. This James Garfield, who I don’t know, maybe he’s a relation is in North Little Rock, Arkansas, and we’re really excited to have him as the listener of this episode. And as our listeners know, we choose somebody to give a shout out. And the way that happens is you like, comment, share, you rate us on our podcast. On your platform of choice, you write us a note. You weigh in on the books. There’s all kinds of ways you can get your own shout out.

Sarah Harrison  04:49

Hey, if you rate us, though, tell us, because I can’t. It’s a lot of that’s anonymous depending on the platform, so I necessarily be able to reach out and give you a sticker. But you can talk to us directly through many, many means, especially the website and the Facebook.

Carolyn Daughters  05:09

We would love it if you did, and if you have rated us, please do reach out and let us know, because the chances are pretty high you’re going to get a shout out in this sticker packet. You have a whole packet you put together?

Sarah Harrison  05:23

Well, no, I don’t put together a whole those are for financial supporters of the show. If you sign up on our Patreon, or if you hit the support the show in the show notes, that goes directly to a fighting financial opportunities to support the show, and all of those folks do receive extra swag that comes with even just a $3 subscription. So we extra appreciate you folks, and we do give you exclusive special episodes as well on the Patreon.

Sarah Harrison  06:01

There’s no way I could have known that because I’m simply a host.

Sarah Harrison  06:04

No, hopefully Carolyn is going to start listening to the episodes and she’ll she herself. Are a flat swag.

Sarah Harrison  06:12

I can’t wait. I’m gonna subscribe right when we get off this. This episode. Excellent, wonderful.

Sarah Harrison  06:23

We are back today to talk about a great book with a great guest, The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope with a wild title that I do want to discuss more by C.W. Grafton. The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope won the Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest. The book involves a short, chubby and awkward, awkward essence, short, chubby and awkward members of the opposite sex. Gil Henry is the youngest partner in a small law firm, not a hard boiled Sleuth. So when an attractive young woman named Ruth McClure walks into his office and asks him to investigate the value of the stock she inherited from her father. He thinks nothing of it, until someone makes an attempt on his life. Soon, Gail is inadvertently embroiled in a classic American scandal, subterfuge and murder. I love that. That’s a classic American thing. He’s beaten, shot and stabbed as his colleagues and enemies, I’m thinking about others, colleagues and enemies trying to stop him from seeing the case through to the end, surrounded by adversaries, he teams up with Ruth and her secretive brother Tim to find answers to the question someone desperately wants to keep him from asking. The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope was published in 1943 in this portrait of America on the eve of America’s entry into World War 2, C. W. Grafton himself a lawyer and the father of prolific mystery writer Sue Grafton pens an award winning historical crime fiction that combines humor and the hard boiled style and will keep readers guessing and tell its thrilling conclusion. Indeed, all true.

Carolyn Daughters  08:13

All true, and we’re excited to welcome back today’s guest Elle Wayne Hicks. Wayne has been a lifelong fan of mysteries, beginning with the Hardy Boys and the three investigators books. I loved the three investigators books when I was a kid. As a newspaper reporter in Florida, Wayne covered criminal trials and was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize for an investigative project that wound up helping to free a man wrongly convicted of murder after more than 20 years in prison. Wayne has interviewed and profiled such acclaimed mystery novelist as Geoffrey Deaver, Michael Connelly, Ridley, Pearson, John Dunning, Sarah Paretsky, Stephen white and John Donald J Sobel. He writes for various magazines and websites, including crime reads.com where he profiled C.W. Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner) and explored the continuation of Robert B. Parker’s Spencer series. Wayne’s first book, a nonfiction tale about the children’s television series Romper Room, will be published in 2026. Welcome back, Wayne.

Wayne Hicks 09:18

Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Sarah Harrison  09:20

Wayne, before we get into hard hitting divergent questions, please tell us about the “L.” in L. Wayne Hicks.

Wayne Hicks 09:31

Well, my father and grandfather and I all have the same first name, which is, which is, Lloyd, l, l, o, y, it’s not a name you hear much about these days, but so we all have different middle names. And my father, who died when I was 16, knew that I wanted to be a writer. I decided that my career path. What it would be when I was eight years old, I wanted to work for newspapers. So my dad, knowing that, he once sat me down and he said there aren’t any famous writers with one syllable names, and this is back in the 1970s and the more I thought about, the more I realized he was correct. And out of his four children, the three of them have multi syllable names. I’m the only one who has Lloyd Wayne Hicks. It’s all one syllable for each name. So when I started writing professionally, I threw in the L in their L, Wayne Hicks. And people would ask me over the years, and initially I would just say, it’s just the Spanish word for “the.”

Carolyn Daughters  10:46

I like that. “The” Wayne Hicks.

Wayne Hicks 10:53

I love that I have had people over the years when I introduced myself to someone as just Wayne Hicks, sometimes people would say, are you related? Or do you know L. Wayne Hicks?

Carolyn Daughters  11:03

Oh, no. He sounds famous. What a jerk. Do you mean the Wayne Hicks? Yes, yes, that’s awesome. And then you have a family member that we’re interested in, that you’ve never met, but you’re going to tell us about a film

Sarah Harrison  11:25

before we get to Laura. I’m really into names. Did you used to go by Lloyd? Or have you always gone by Wayne?

Wayne Hicks 11:37

Well, the common names in my family are David and Lloyd. So I have a I have a brother David. I had an uncle David. And for their entirety of their life, there was big David and little David. So you can differentiate between which David you’re talking about. So by going by Wayne, I avoided being called

Sarah Harrison  12:00

Little Lloyd. Oh, I was hoping you were little Lloyd. I was, I’ve never been little Lloyd. You could be LL, wings, well, and so the first thing I thought of was C W. Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner) was going by C W. Did his dad also tell him he needs two syllables. I’m not sure.

Wayne Hicks 12:23

He went by several names. I think when he was in China, his nickname was corny, and why not? And, and I’ve never been able to find out why. And then chip I’m not sure why, because Cornelius. I mean, I could see Cornelius becoming Cornellius. Warren Grafton, I don’t see it a Chip in there. I could see if it’s like Charles becoming Chip, but he just liked being called Chip, I guess.

Sarah Harrison  12:54

Okay, that’s better than Corny. I mean, there’s corn. Give me the third option. Now, my daughter’s name is Patience, and we call her “Paish,” which isn’t a word, so that makes total sense. My name curiosity is satiated for the time being. Carolyn, can ask about your favorite cousin?

Sarah Harrison  13:23

Yes, well, favorite or maybe not, we don’t know, but tell us about your cousin.

Wayne Hicks 13:28

Well, this is a distant cousin. I think it’s like a second cousin. My father’s cousin was Dana Andrews, who started

Sarah Harrison  13:39

That’s really cool.

Wayne Hicks 13:41

If you were going to a bookstore 1943 you could pick up a copy of either Laura, or you can pick up a copy of The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope. You can. Or you can buy both. You can bought both and the time between Laura being published and becoming a movie was only about a year and Chip Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner) was writing these actors in Hollywood to say, hey, you’d be perfect to play Gilmore Henry, and he just got turned down studios didn’t want it for some reason.

Sarah Harrison  14:20

And did he write to your cousin? Did he write to Dana?

Wayne Hicks 14:24

I don’t think he wrote to Dana that.

Sarah Harrison  14:26

That would be too good.

Sarah Harrison  14:29

I want to know which actors would have been perfect to play Gil.

Wayne Hicks 14:33

Well, what actor that he wrote to who found it writing back to say, No, thank you. Was van Heflin. Right now, you’d have to look him up to see if, is he short and pudgy?

Sarah Harrison  14:49

I was gonna say, I’m not sure his request would have been met with people feeling complimented by that.

Sarah Harrison  14:57

Or when they when they have done a Hollywood Vera. Shouldn’t have Gil where he’s taller and not pudgy, very handsome, would they have done a different version

Sarah Harrison  15:07

van Heflin doesn’t look pudgy, but he does have a different look. I could see him as Gil. Honestly, I’m looking at him and I’m like, I hate to be Gil.

Wayne Hicks 15:16

For sure. You never know what Hollywood’s gonna do to a book, right? And Sue Grafton was definitely against her books being made into movies. She did not want them to why. She had a very bad experience working in Hollywood and she didn’t. She thought about trying to finish her father’s last book, but he didn’t leave any notes or clues as to how things were going to resolve. Sue Grafton, daughter of Chip (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner), unfortunately died after Y is for Yesterday. And before she died, she told her children, do not let anyone finish these. Why did she and she told them that if she sold her books to Hollywood, she would come back and haunt them, okay.

Sarah Harrison  16:19

Well, maybe they just want to see her again, though.

Wayne Hicks 16:23

But if you look at Lawrence Block Burglar stories, great novels, but Hollywood made a movie out of one of his books. And in the book series, the Burglar series, Bernie Rodenbar is a middle-aged man who was a cat burglar, and when Hollywood turned it into a movie, it was played by Whoopi Goldberg. So you can see why people would be reluctant to turn their babies over to Hollywood.

Sarah Harrison  17:03

What didn’t you tell us in the last episode? Didn’t sue turn her dad’s book into a screenplay.

Wayne Hicks 17:10

She turned, beyond a reasonable doubt, his last novel into a screenplay. And for whatever reason, it didn’t.

Sarah Harrison  17:20

go and he wasn’t picked up attributed to her beef.

Wayne Hicks 17:23

I’m not sure if, I’m not sure at what point in her career she had, she had written that screenplay, but she was, she was obviously a big fan of her father’s, and in in her dedication for A is for alibi. She dedicated to her father and basically said, this is for my dad, C.W. Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner), who put me on this, on this path.

Sarah Harrison  17:50

I’m going to call that mandate a bummer, though, because as we’ve been going, as we’ve been going through our history of mystery, I feel there is an association between when you see authors have staying power and people continue being interested in them, they are often the same authors who are having their works turned into TV and movie episodes. I’m bummed out that someone would mandate, no, never my work, because sometimes that’s the immortality, is the continued reinterpretation of their work visually.

Wayne Hicks 18:31

I agree. But you also have people who have the character in their mind a certain way, and they get mad that this actor doesn’t fit their perception. Oh, totally imagination of who it’s supposed to be.

Sarah Harrison  18:48

I don’t think it ever measures up. But these authors continue to be generating interest, and their work continue to be like living beyond them. I don’t know that’s my take anyway. I guess she doesn’t feel the same.

Carolyn Daughters  19:11

For me, the closest is David Suchet is Hercule Poirot. He is just, in my mind, so close and so good at that role. But you could see how it could go sideways with the wrong actor, or with a Hollywood version of the actor, you have Margot Robbie playing Kinsey Millhone, or something like that. What do you do? You know, Hollywood is the thing.

Sarah Harrison  19:36

We saw that in the Alfred Hitchcock film Rebecca, right? Rebecca was a blonde bombshell instead of being the awkward second wife who didn’t fit in. But I want to go back a second to the name situation. Not your name, but the name of the book The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope by C.W. Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner). So I’ve read the. I thought I’ve read all the Mother Goose rhymes to my kids twice. So that was a thing. Whenever my kids were born and they’d be nursing, I would read to them, and I would always read the full Mother Goose rhymes. And I did not remember reading this 1am, I? I wanted to find it, but it’s in a box right now. I just moved to Virginia. Have you read the rhyme? And can you talk about where this name came from?

Wayne Hicks 20:28

Well, it is a rhyme. I’m not sure if it’s Mother Goose. I’m not familiar with this particular rhyme at all.

Sarah Harrison  20:36

I believe it’s Mother Goose. I thought they said in the book, and that’s where it was from. I’ve read all the Mother Goose.

Wayne Hicks 20:43

It’s a very long poem, and it has the beginning where it’s credited to Mother Goose in the book, and it says, The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope. The rope began to hang the butcher. The butcher began to kill the ox. The ox began to drink the water. And it goes on and on and on. It’s a series of events, but it is not something I’m familiar with, but he certainly intended to use a lot of the rhymes for the titles of his books. I think he had at least eight books planned after winning the Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest.

Wayne Hicks 21:30

Oh, interesting. What happened?

Wayne Hicks 21:33

He tried to write. And initially, he would write at home after work. You do it on the weekends, but he became so successful as an attorney that that ate up more and more of his time. There were some nights where I’ve read he would be working until midnight, and you can’t and you can’t sustain that. So he really had just devote himself to the law, even though he wasn’t professing his love for the law to his daughter Sue Grafton. He’s told her, don’t become a lawyer. It’s very boring. I’ve never read any of his legal briefs, but I imagine they were pretty interesting reads. He actually wrote a mini autobiographical profile in his later years. He wrote about serving in the war, but he said he never had to fire a shot or be fired upon. He even mentioned his successes, but he mentioned them with a gloomy state where he said he argued a case before the Supreme Court and won, but he said it was a little noticed case and long forgotten.

Sarah Harrison  22:52

What was the case? Those are all recorded.

Wayne Hicks 22:55

I’m not sure which case was I didn’t, I didn’t research that much into his life, because he was a municipal bond attorney, which isn’t that exciting to me anyway, right?

Sarah Harrison  23:06

And somehow he argued before the Supreme Court. Those are usually pretty fundamental propositions. I’m very interested.

Wayne Hicks 23:14

And then he wrote these four books. He published four books, including The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner). And when he wrote this, his little autobiographical sketch, he said they were long out of print. And so his attitude was, this is a quote he had, quote, not very much to show for 71 years, unquote, which is sad.

Sarah Harrison  23:38

That is sad.

Sarah Harrison  23:41

For such a cool guy doing cool stuff, but that was the framework that he put it in.

Wayne Hicks 23:48

I mean, most people never write one book.

Sarah Harrison  23:51

Almost no one argues before the Supreme Court and wins.

Wayne Hicks 23:55

Exactly. So I think maybe the alcoholism might have made him a bit more gloomy. I think being in the war made him a bit more cynical. But he had an amazing career, an amazing life. It may be not have been the life that he had wanted to go from write, write, write, write. He deviated from his writing career to focus on the law practice with his brother. But he had an amazing and life, and without him, we wouldn’t have had Sue Grafton, this wonderful novelist.

Sarah Harrison  24:31

That makes me so sad that he’s being so successful as a lawyer, he’s working through the night, and in his framework, he’s failing at life,  he’s got nothing. He’s not doing what he wants. He’s not the person he thinks. He could be like that to me.

Wayne Hicks 24:52

He would get these royalty checks and the Sue Grafton archives, I think, is at Boston University, has information about her dad as well, but he get these royalty checks, and sometimes it’d be 100 something dollars, and sometimes it was like 60 cents. So, so you get a check, here’s how your book is done, here’s 60, for your efforts, you can’t do much with that.

Sarah Harrison  25:18

That’s an insult of a check that’s less worth less than the paper it’s printed on.

Carolyn Daughters  25:26

Jerks, yep. And this nursery rhyme The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope as the title of the book (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner), it feels like the logical progression of the way he Gil, our protagonist, solves the mystery. He’s very logical. He gets one fact and then builds upon it to the next thing and the next. And it seems like a lot of characters are hesitant to uncover the truth, and Gil is constantly pursuing the truth. And I think that is really interesting, like how the nursery rhyme. Finally, at the end of it, I think the old woman makes it home. But so how does he get to the end of the nursery rhyme? You’ve got to do one thing. And he’s so dogged in his pursuit. I think it’s, it’s really interesting. Can you talk a little bit about like Gil as our protagonist, as somebody who is maybe part of the mystery canon, but also divergent from it. In the book, there are references to Watson and Perry Mason and Hercule Poirot, tons of references, how does Gil fit in with this canon, and how is he apart from it?

Wayne Hicks 26:41

That’s an interesting question. I haven’t really thought much about that. On one hand, Gil in The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner) is a hardboiled character, but on the other hand, he is this wise cracker, wise acre just always cracking jokes and pushing people, and sometimes the jokes he cracks or it’s the internal monolog where he talks he thinks to himself about something. It’s a lively read. And the fact that he keeps pushing and pushing against authority, I think, makes him someone that it’s, let me see how to phrase this. He pushes against authority so much that authority pushes back. They threaten to arrest him. They want to run out of town. And then you have his interactions with these women where  he comes up against this one wealthy woman, and he starts talking to her about, hey, you’re gonna marry me, and you’re some money every month to so I can have some steak and some booze. He’s admittedly a schlubby character. He’s pudgy, he’s short, he’s not the best dressed. He lives at the YMCA, but he feels confident enough in himself that that he’s willing to go up against authority and willing to try to woo these various women. And there’s no indication in the book about how good an attorney he is.

Sarah Harrison  28:37

He was a partner.

Wayne Hicks 28:38

Though he was a partner, he was the very, very last name.

Sarah Harrison  28:41

Very bottom.

Sarah Harrison  28:42

He was the last partner, but he was a partner.

Wayne Hicks 28:45

He was a partner, junior partner, but you never see him practicing the law. You never see him having to do anything other than irritate people. So I would have loved to have read more about his cases, what he comes up with next after being a Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner?

Sarah Harrison  29:06

Let me ask you this. He did find himself at odds with authority, but I didn’t get the picture. He’s a person that pushes against authority. I felt like Gil is a person that just does the next best idea. He’s thinking about it so he’s going to do the next thing that he needs to do. And authority is almost not a consideration. It’s just like, well, I’ll get around that if they’re putting a barrier and maybe we need to talk about, is it James Mead, right? His senior partner, who was exactly bizarre character, in my opinion, he was bizarre he was when he was telling him to get out of town for asking perfectly reasonable questions. What kind of lawyer are you? And like saying there was no conflict, but there was major conflict.

Carolyn Daughters  30:01

Yes. At the end of the book, it’s trying to think which character it is. It’s Ruth, I think, says, talks about what happens when you stand in the way of the truth, right? So her quote has something like, if there are these disastrous dam breaking consequences when you stand in the way of the truth. So she says, if the truth about her, her half-brother, or her not half-brother, but her adopted brother, had been revealed.

Sarah Harrison  30:27

Revealed brother at all? It’s very important.

Carolyn Daughters  30:30

That actually is extremely important. But if that, if the truth had been revealed at the time, it would have just moved along like a small trickle, but over the years, it built up and then it burst the dam, and then all of this chaos ensues, and it feels to me like Gil, at his core, pursues the truth. I don’t know what either of you think about that, but I think that it’s not necessarily pushing back on authority. I’m going to find out what really happened that’s really important to Gil.

Wayne Hicks 31:01

I think that’s true. He really wants to know the truth of the matter, and he suffers quite a bit. I mean, he’s constantly being beaten up and knocked out to keep at what point the tooth broken off? Oh my gosh. Winds up in the hospital, stabbed and shot. He’s very dogged. He’s not scared off.

Carolyn Daughters  31:25

He’s cool. The book won the Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest, and deservedly so. Gil is an amazing character.

Sarah Harrison  31:31

That’s a nice contrast, Carolyn. Just so you know, Wayne, this is a spoiler podcast, so all of our, all of our history of mystery podcast, we do allow spoilers, but, I think that’s a really good contrast to what was actually going on in the story, which was this very rich gentleman who owned the whole town, had an illegitimate son, and they they created their entire life and their inheritance and all of these things around that never being known in their own lifetime, just trying to escape the truth about them being known until they were both dead, like that was the whole thing. So that’s a really when the truth comes out is a really interesting contrast to that motivation.

Wayne Hicks 32:28

And I think people were so determined in this book to keep their secrets, that it caused a lot of harm. And that if they had just taken Gil Henry aside and said, here’s why I’m offering more money than the stock is worth. It’s because of this. Don’t tell anybody, but that’s why.

Carolyn Daughters  32:52

Right. But it starts the book starts with Ruth wanting to know the truth, because she could just take the money, right? And just be like, All right, I have no idea. But over the years, she had and Tim, her adopted brother, had not asked a lot of the hard questions, like, how could their father have found $10,000 to invest? How did how did Tim go to Princeton? How did she go to a college called Sweetwater. How did they afford the lifestyle where you have a new car every year? How did this happen? So eventually Ruth does start asking the questions, and that launches the book, and it syncs her up with Gil, which is it feels like that’s one of his motivating forces. Is, what is the truth and what actually happened. And I, I’m as the reader was on board. I was like, Okay, I from the start of the book, I wanted to know. I just, I think it’s really it’s very clever and it’s interesting. The plot, I felt was a little convoluted at times, but I was happy to go along on the ride. It reminded me a little bit of when we were reading about the Continental Op. I can’t remember what the which book we did, Sarah, maybe you remember that Don put me on the spot here and now I’m putting, I’m putting myself on the spot.

Sarah Harrison  34:19

Where that’s one of the That’s right? That’s Red Harvest, right?

Carolyn Daughters  34:22

Dashiell Hammett’s Red Harvest. Where it’s like, I’ll go on this ride forever, but one thing happens and another thing happens, and it’s hard at the end of the book, you just know that there were a ton of killings and a ton of stabbings, and I felt that a little bit with The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner), too. But the ride was so enjoyable. I was like, okay, it could even be longer. I’d keep going, if that makes sense. That was how I felt about it.

Sarah Harrison  34:51

Well, you brought up a point I agree with about Ruth, which was like, why now? Now that you’re offered to be paid for the stock and you’ve it’s. Fail to notice any of these other interesting coincidences of your past. It seemed a little unnecessary, but I guess it makes sense when you’re brought up a certain way that you don’t exactly notice what’s going on, it just becomes naturalized to how you live your life.

Wayne Hicks 35:19

You don’t ask questions. If things are going fine, why? Why rock the boat?

Carolyn Daughters  35:28

She’s a really interesting character, because she’s super strong at one point he says, nobody’s going to push her down. She’s going to get back up. And she’s got fire in her eyes, and so she’s, she’s a pretty tough woman in this book. And I liked that because at times I was wondering how he was going to present various female characters. And I really liked Mrs. Harper, who’s the invalid, because she’s got a sense of humor, and she gets Gil. I liked Janet, who was with Gil even at the end where, he’s like, Oh, you’re still here. And she’s like, You better get used to it, like, so he’s winning the heart of the  rich heiress at the end of the story. And I liked a lot of the women characters in this book.

Sarah Harrison  36:22

Mrs. Harper was really interesting. Wayne, I want to get your take on her. I was surprised that she ended up being in on the whole thing. Yes, you had an illegitimate child before we were married. And I will leave half of our fortune to her, not just my child. And she stays true to that, to the point of asking Gil to create this convoluted will situation, which I couldn’t quite follow until the very end, when they explained what he did. And then I was like, Oh, I get her comments now, which was like, I thought some great writing on the part of Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner). But what was your take on Mrs. Harper.

Wayne Hicks 37:06

I thought she was a great character. I could just picture her this invalid character, bossing everybody around, anybody who came into her orbit, she had something for them to do. She could have, she could have had any attorney she wanted to do these wills, but Gil Henry stumbles in and she’s like, Could you do a will? Could you do two?

Sarah Harrison  37:33

Gil himself is able to elicit this kind of trust, which is interesting. And her self-awareness, like I’m next on the docket to be murdered. It touched my heart, I will say.

Carolyn Daughters  37:51

She knew her end was near. I liked her as a character. And I think she says to Gail, like, I trust you, but the moment you leave the room, I asked myself, Why? And so there’s something about that his presence, or his character, his aura, when he is present with somebody where a discerning person might trust him. And I felt like she was a discerning person.

Wayne Hicks 38:17

He seemed to get along with the with the female characters, much, much better than with the men. Although he did punch one woman in the face.

Sarah Harrison  38:29

I feel like was part of his self-deprecation, though, like he sees himself as pudgy, okay, maybe he was, maybe his pants were tight. He sees himself as not good with ladies. But by the end,  this heiress is like, trying to marry him.

Sarah Harrison  38:47

Maybe it’s like Rebecca, right? She’s very self-deprecating, but in reality, she’s gorgeous, so who knows?

Sarah Harrison  38:56

Maybe it’s like Grafton himself, who sees his life as unsuccessful, and when he’s like, wildly successful by all human standards. Even though he was a Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner.

Wayne Hicks 39:07

There’s one scene in the in the book where, where Gilmore Henry starts kissing the heiress, and she’s like, doesn’t respond at all. And later on, she’s responding to him.

Sarah Harrison  39:22

That was wild to me after, like, he recovers in the hospital, and she’s like, let me get you steak, darling. Yes.

Carolyn Daughters  39:31

I thought for the for a while, I thought she was in on the plot, so I thought, yes. I thought, okay, she’s part of, she’s one of the people responsible for murder, for all of this deception. And turns out she she was not, but that took me by surprise, right? She was part of being deceived, which I think she took pretty hard, as you would.

Sarah Harrison  40:00

Did being romance that way?

Wayne Hicks 40:05

He did a good job writing the female characters, and maybe that was because he had a lot of women in his life. He had his wife, his daughter’s obviously way too young to be modeled for anything, but he had several legal assistants at his office, the female legal assistants, one of whom he wound up marrying and she eventually became an attorney in practice with him. So he was around these, I imagine, pretty strong women, and absorb some of their ideas or philosophies or characteristics to make these characters believable. The women, none of the characters in this book are, are cardboard cutouts. Yes, some books you read it’s like, this character exists only to get you from point A to point B to point C. Every character in the in the book had a reason. I mean, you had a sheriff and a police chief and one of them’s like, Don’t listen to him. One of them’s like, well, maybe let’s see what he has to say.

Carolyn Daughters  41:22

Some of the characters in The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner).

Sarah Harrison  41:24

Oh, go ahead, honestly, that was an interesting insight into some dynamics that I wouldn’t have thought of. It’s probably related to Gil’s profession. Wayne, I was wondering if you’ve experienced similar things in your journalism career of these weird jurisdiction details, or all of this stuff that maybe wouldn’t be at the forefront of someone else’s mind that end up being a pivotal to how things turn out.

Wayne Hicks 41:51

Well, I’m a big fan of unsolved mysteries because I’m hoping, I mean, real-life mysteries. I’m always hoping that something happens. I want to know what happens. Some hope. I’m hoping that my idea of heaven would be. All the mysteries in the world are revealed to you. Here’s where your car keys went, here’s where the socks were, here’s where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. I wrote a story about a woman who was on her way to college, to a college class and then and then vanished. She was never heard from again. No body turned up. There was another story where I believe it was this husband and wife, and the wife turns up murdered, and the husband’s missing, and everyone assumes, well, obviously the husband did it, but a few years go by and they actually discover his remains nearby. So it’s like, what? What happened? Who did the deed? I think, obviously, if there’s a real-life mystery, I feel bad for the real people, the real participants, because you want closure.

Carolyn Daughters  43:22

That’s one thing with these mystery novels that is just so fun, is most of the books we’ve read, there is some sort of closure at the end. Who the murderer was, or if it’s a howdunit, how it happened, or why you’re you get some answers that you’re seeking. I think as we continue moving through this century, though, Sarah, we’re going to come up against a couple books that are going to confound us, because we might not have all the answers. Oh no, I know it’s crazy, but in the series books, almost always we have an answer. And this book, The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope, though it’s not a series, it feels like it feels like a series. And certainly could have launched an entire series.

Sarah Harrison  44:08

For sure. And it’s nice to see that his daughter took that step forward, or maybe he didn’t quite. L. Wayne Hicks, Mr. Lloyd, it’s been delightful talking to you. We are at our time, but I do want to make sure folks are able to find you to learn more. We discussed Romper Room coming out next year. How else can they find your work? Read more about some of the things that you have going on.

Wayne Hicks 44:38

Well, you can certainly just google the name L. Wayne Hicks, all kinds of things pop up.

Sarah Harrison  44:45

Just google them, folks. Just good.

Wayne Hicks 44:48

There will be a website created at some point in the near future to let people read some of things. I’ve written that in one place, but I’ve got to work on that. LWayneHicks.com, coming soon, something like that.

Sarah Harrison  45:03

And you’ve got at least a couple articles on crimereads.com.

Wayne Hicks 45:08

And there’s another one coming out about Michael Connelly, 20 years.

Carolyn Daughters  45:13

Very cool. Okay, we’re gonna look out for that. In fact, if you keep us posted on one that goes live, we’ll help promote that, that’d be great. Sounds good? I just wanted to end with one quick just thought from you, Wayne about like we talked briefly in the last episode, okay? C.W. Grafton (Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner). C.W. Grafton did not live to see A is for Alibi published by his daughter Sue Grafton. And you said you thought he would be pleased. Can you just speak a little bit about like? What? How do you think he would have responded to find out that his daughter had done this thing and created one of the most popular mystery series ever written?

Wayne Hicks 45:59

Well, C.W. Grafton spent a lot of time, and he had two daughters. One became a librarian. She obviously was also into books, but he had a house filled with mystery novels. He talked to her, he talked to sue extensively about writing, and he put her on the path of, if you’re going to write, you got to think about this and this and this and this. And just from like age eight on, was putting in her head that, yes, you will if you want to write, here’s how you do it. And she picked up the pen pad and started writing. Obviously wasn’t successful in the very beginning, but I think he would have been so pleased that not only did his kid listen to him, but did so successfully and left a legacy. Her books will be in print for decades to come, and hopefully his will be back in print. I would love to see more of his books. At least the three Gilmore Henry or the Gilmore Henry books (after the Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winning book, The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope), plus, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, back in print.

Sarah Harrison  47:13

Does Sue Grafton have any kids? Is there anyone else pushing his agenda forward?

Wayne Hicks 47:19

She has, I think, two children, if I’m remembering correctly, but obviously I think they never knew their grandfather. There’s a disconnect. But if you don’t really know your grandparents, do you have an emotional connection with their life and their work? Sue Grafton obviously knew her dad and she wanted her book, his books to be back in print.

Carolyn Daughters  47:45

Since we mentioned Dashiell Hammett, his granddaughter is very involved in his legacy. Julie Rivett.

Sarah Harrison  47:52

We just want to see these great books stay alive in the public realm of knowledge.

Carolyn Daughters  47:58

We highly recommend this book, The Rat Began to Gnaw the Rope. It’s findable now that it’s been republished, I think, by the Library of Congress? Poison Pen Press?

Wayne Hicks 48:12

Poison Pen Press, which is operating under the source books umbrella, and then in collaboration with the Library of Congress. They’ve been publishing various American prime classics. I’m glad they picked this one.

Sarah Harrison  48:36

It’s awesome. And this is my copy here.

Sarah Harrison  48:39

Carolyn’s copy is awesome. Show them the inside, Carolyn.

Sarah Harrison  48:42

This is the inside

Sarah Harrison  48:45

For our audio listeners

Sarah Harrison  48:47

From the library of Sue Grafton.

Wayne Hicks 48:50

Oh, that’s great.

Carolyn Daughters  48:52

So I have Sue Grafton’s copy of her dad’s book, which I think is pretty cool. (The Mary Roberts Rinehart mystery contest winner.) I’m thrilled to have it. And please, everybody, if you haven’t read it yet, read it. It’s really a great book.

Sarah Harrison  49:10

I read it on a flight to Denver, couldn’t put it down, opted not to watch any movies, just so I could continue reading the book and get to the end. It’s great.

Wayne Hicks 49:21

And what one thing about Sue Grafton, and what she was saying about lessons she learned from her father’s life, is, don’t give up. Don’t quit. If you want to do something, you only got one shot to go through life. And if you’re if you have passion about something, that you need to keep moving it forward. And don’t stop. Don’t delay. And if you started, don’t stop. Those are good lessons for anybody, especially writers. Very good. I love it.

Sarah Harrison  49:51

All right, Mr. L. Wayne Hicks, thank you so much for joining us today.

Wayne Hicks 49:55

Oh, you’re most welcome. Enjoyed it.

Sarah Harrison  49:57

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